Neural Networks Are Already Clean

(already-clean.goodfire.com)

104 points | by themgt 1 hour ago

14 comments

  • sebmellen 11 minutes ago
    Nick is a force of nature. Highly recommend following him on X if you don't already.

    His launch post gives good context not found in the blog:

    > interpretability might be the most important scientific problem in the world right now, as I don't think we can solve alignment if we don't know what we're building. I think I have good news about it. I co-authored early work in mechanistic interpretability at OpenAI and came away pessimistic, because neural networks appeared to fold into arbitrary tangled knots. years later, I started openai's first large-scale automated interpretability project, finding about 2% of neurons legible with the primitive tools we had

    > with modern agentic tools and a much closer look, the picture looks totally different. the vast majority in models up to trillions of parameters are legible, and their circuits beautiful. many famous examples of tangled neurons turned out to be misunderstood. The roadblocks I expected mostly aren't there. I now think ambitious interpretability will be solved by the time we need it most, and possibly quite soon, as automated scientists keep improving. it may be a bitter lesson for interpretability: the simple thing, at absurd scale, works

    https://x.com/nickcammarata/status/2110757819427574056?s=46

  • stratos123 2 minutes ago
    I'm not sure I buy the author's arguments for mechanistic interpretability being easy, but it sure is a well-made and very interesting post. Would be better without the completely superfluous laggy 3d city model, though.
  • etbebl 27 minutes ago
    This website crashed my phone - let's not have auto-playing embedded 3D renders, or whatever that was?
    • zetanor 7 minutes ago
      It pegs my i7-12700 before rendering anything if I don't block JS, so I'm quite curious to know what work of art I'm missing out on.
  • ks2048 18 minutes ago
    To cut through some of all this text - here's a link he calls "the first non-trivial neural network I feel I mostly understand:

    https://already-clean.goodfire.com/microscope/medium.html?la...

  • bob1029 1 hour ago
    I think certain classes of artificial neural networks are definitely more interpretable than others.

    For example, a trillion-parameter transformer model built using many layers is likely significantly easier to read than one that only has a few million parameters but was constructed using neuroevolution over one gigantic layer.

    The degree to which a model can be quantized without losing its performance also likely contributes to interpretability. The redundancy can help humans lock onto patterns. If there is no redundancy at all (everything is a surprise in information theoretical terms), then the stream of parameters will look indistinguishable from cosmic background radiation.

    • jacquesm 28 minutes ago
      > a trillion-parameter transformer model built using many layers is likely significantly easier to read than one that only has a few million parameters but was constructed using neuroevolution over one gigantic layer.

      Why do you believe this?

      • D-Machine 17 minutes ago
        The posted article argues this many times...
  • tuvix 18 minutes ago
    This is the primary reason, to me, that open weights are so important. If OpenAI and Anthropic want these models to be as autonomous as possible they also need to provide the means to understand them fully.
  • yurimo 32 minutes ago
    I have yet to fully finish going trough this but I would not rush to say that superposition is completely wrong. I understand that the message is instead of first learning a new representation (e.g. SAEs/transcoders) and then interpreting those learned features, you try to understand the neurons and circuits that already exist in the model.

    This approach is part of a way some researchers in the field approach interp, (me including) because I am personally cautious of developing some new representation model that claims to be the way we should represent the network. It is another layer of abstraction that takes us away from core model components, very often this requires training a separate model that was not on its own a part of original model organism during training (SAE).

    I would argue that models will likely be further increasing in complexity, not just in size, when model trains continuously and becomes adaptive yet parameter count does not change, it is not hard to imagine that neurons may reorganize themselves to pack more information.

  • xyzsparetimexyz 29 minutes ago
    Why does this post have a very laggy city gif thing at the top?
  • MisterMunchkin 9 minutes ago
    This is way too much writing, you should have asked Claude to summarise it. Good attempt though, at first glance you would think it is human writing.
    • ks2048 4 minutes ago
      It starts with "The Short Version", but even that looks like several pages of text. In the olden days, there was something called an "Abstract" that worked pretty well - the author could summarize their own work to say what the paper was about.
  • mpalmer 5 minutes ago
    For the layperson who doesn't want to read 20,000 words, many of which are quite redundant due to the way the article was built, this is a version which adds a glossary, preserves the original language (except the added intro and conclusion which I felt was lacking) but removes all repeated material and claims, of which there was a massive amount.

    https://pastebin.com/raw/p11vzFnB

  • Imnimo 50 minutes ago
    Feels like I'm back in the distill.pub days!
  • jdw64 20 minutes ago
    Wow, I thought it was a GIF, but it's actually interactive. The website is just too heavy, though.
  • phyzome 1 hour ago
    16,000 words into the essay: "What I mean by clean"

    ...and it still doesn't answer it. What is this actually about?

    • emtel 33 minutes ago
      It means that NNs don't (as previously thought) smoosh unrelated concepts together into the same neurons, which would have made interpretability very difficult.

      For instance, if you had a single neuron that fires for "puppies" and "murder", it would be much more difficult to tell if the model is thinking something nice or something not so nice.

    • lucrbvi 1 hour ago
      It means that modern neural networks are way more interpretable than older ones. We can understand how they work way more easily than earlier ones.
    • wmf 59 minutes ago
      I think "clean" means something like each neuron encodes exactly one concept and it's possible to discover what the concept is.
      • jacquesm 26 minutes ago
        But they don't. That's the whole reason they work in the first place.

        Every neuron in the layer encodes fractionally something about the concepts embedded in the whole thing. It's more like a hologram than a series of connected facts.

      • ky3 56 minutes ago
        Doesn't "orthogonal" convey that meaning more crisply and precisely?
        • lanternfish 25 minutes ago
          Orthogonal means something different in mechinterp, so it'd be an overloaded term. Usually orthogonal would imply that there are actual vectors under consideration, which isn't the underlying claim.
        • D-Machine 41 minutes ago
          Using "orthogonal" here would have the opposite effect, as it would impart a far more specific meaning which is also incorrect in this case.
    • amelius 26 minutes ago
      Clean means no alchemy.