I live in Barcelona, and during last year’s blackout I wandered through the city. As I passed by the Baix Guinardó gardens, I came across something that felt like a "A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte" brought to life: the park was full of families socialising the old way, children running everywhere, the whole place buzzing with chatter and energy.
Later that day, walking home through darkened streets, I noticed small groups, maybe a dozen people at a time, gathered around certain spots. For some reason, a few closed shops still seemed to have working free Wi-Fi (backup generators, maybe), and people clustered there, drawn in like mosquitoes to light. Their faces glowed in the dark, lit only by their screens, and they stood in near-total silence. It’s hard to describe the feeling, it was surreal. You had to be there.
I’m no Luddite, but I went to sleep that night wondering how on earth we get ourselves out of this.
Have you ever seen those videos filming London streets in the 1970s? They are absolutely packed with groups of two or three people, not going places, but just standing there, chatting, as if they have nowhere else to be. It is something most of us have never experienced in any form and the change has happened over long enough timescales that we are used to our streets of strangers just going about their lives, the external world just a physical inconvenience to traverse as quickly as possible, not the real world where one just exists.
My perspective is very simple: our homes are simply a lot more comfortable than they used to be.
We have better heating/air conditioning, endless television/video games/entertainment, large refrigerators, lower density, etc and so on.
Back then, home covered a narrower set of needs - so the default option was to spend time elsewhere, even if it was just to escape the noise/heat/smells/smoke of home for a minute.
Yup, I'm a Spaniard and had a similar feeling. I'm pretty sure that, if the government had proposed an intentional weekly blackout, there would have been a large majority in favor.
I'm currently trying to reduce internet usage by a simple rule: no feeds (try to avoid places where I could even see them).
It's extremely difficult.
YouTube receives you with a feed, every social network as well, even the online version of a newspaper is arguably a feed. It's usually not possible to use a service without having one in frequent sight. Even my weather app tries its best to offer a feed of weather related news, the photo gallery app shows one of memories....
Yes, managing relationships needs time, but there is another problem I see nowadays. When I was young (I'm in my sixties), it was normal to have friends who could be very different from you. They might have had qualities you didn't like at all, but you could still be very good friends. If I look my students (highschool and college level) now, they are extremely intolerant for differences compared to what I remember from my youth. One "I don't like it" problem is enough to dump any relationship. Why? I guess it's because of a lack of practice – you don't really need to interact with so many different people nowadays and interacting with people who are very different from you is just plain terrifying for many.
It may be terrifying, but it's also terribly important. If the friendship can't survive differences, you're going to silently censor any points of differences (real or imagined) and soon you're just pretending to be the people you think the other expects you to be. No depth of connection, no growth.
You want someone to be friends with you, as you actually are. And that means you need to be friends with them, as they actually are, even if you worship different brands or vote for different movies.
I’m curious if you think viewpoints have also gotten more extreme in this period. It feels like the gap in political ideologies has widened a lot since I was younger.
>Why? I guess it's because of a lack of practice – you don't really need to interact with so many different people nowadays and interacting with people who are very different from you is just plain terrifying for many.
It’s not any more or less terrifying than in previous times, but as you wrote “you don’t really need to interact with so many different people”.
I would shorten that to “you don’t need so many people anymore”. Another factor is you can easily find more agree-able people (or bots) to spend time with, such as on this website rather than a neighbor.
Depends? Are those more narrow one’s better and people have a better idea of what ideal looks like?
I’m kind of horrified at people saying they had/have to work at their best friendships as with my best friends, everything is seamless.
There are no misunderstandings. We never have to forgive each other. We never even need to clarify things for each other much, as we are that well aligned.
Granted it may not be possible, but ideally go find a better match in a friend.
The axes are independent. You can have seamless friendships with people who are very different from you, and contentious relationships with folks who are just like you (but doing it wrong!)
There's nothing wrong with having to work at friendship. For years I had a friend that I looked up to (and, as it turned out looked up to me). We were both constantly striving to justify the other's faith and respect. It was a lot of work but incredibly valuable for both of us.
I see this exact thing right now to me and some (former?) friends, we’re all in our early to mid-40s. And, yes, it does involve politics, and more generally how one sees the world, but I personally find it quite baffling nonetheless. It’s like people really do feel the need to continue living in their intellectual bubble-balls, no dialectics involved, no contradiction, and hence no real (intellectual and not only) move forward.
I can’t and don’t see an easy solution for it, to be honest.
- making new friends does take a massive amount of time, not just in finding friends but also in spending time with them until you can call them long-time friends
- so you need to invest time in hanging out with people! Even when you don’t know what to say to them or when it’s awkward or when you’re not sure if you like them much. We weren’t picky when we were kids making friends, we just hung out a lot with whoever wanted to hang out
- this also means make yourself available. Romantic partners, new jobs, as well as kids basically destroy your free time, but lots of it is self inflicted. Make sure you don’t seclude yourself and prioritize hanging out with people
- also, it’s a number game, you should meet a lot of people if you want to eventually have a strong group of friends
- one trick is to organize a house party or some gathering once a week, on the same day, and invite everyone you know, and ask them to invite more people as well
- make sure you also spend time doing nothing with friends. Like watching tv and sitting on the couch. That’s how you used to create friendships as a kid, you just “hang”, you didn’t “go to the restaurant and went home afterwards”
idk about a house party once a week, but I do like the idea of having my friends invite their other friends. As I age, it becomes harder to find new friends just by happenstance. Friends of Friends usually end up becoming friends after meeting them.
One thing I read on IG that one couple decided to do in NL was what they call "stoepen" ("stoep" is the Dutch word for sidewalk). They'd get some chairs to their front yard, which is connected to the sidewalk, and they'd greet people and start chatting with them. When vibes clicked they'd invite them to come sit with them, until people got in the habit of sometimes coming by and sitting with them.
So there's that. Obviously there are other ways, but thought it'd be fun to share.
Also research on self-disclosure might help. Long story short: be the first to reveal some details about yourself and progressively go deeper to the level that you want, it's kind of a tit for tat type of thing. There was one popular article about it so you could "fall in love" but IMO it's not love, it's simply building a deeper connection. Check it out [1].
I used to be really interested in topics like this, so if you want to know more about it or brainstorm, feel free to reach out. My email is in my profile.
I wonder if that's actually related to the Afrikaans word "stoep", where it's used in the sense of verandah which is obviously where you'd sit outside the house and watch the word go by. Both meanings ultimately come from the original meaning of the word as "step".
I've just moved to a new town, and my social life is kicking.
Found a local computer club, crew of lads tinkering and using open source software. Really nice, smart bunch. I'm learning loads and appreciating their company.
OP found this lacking, because it's not working fast enough and he's not getting enough time with people.
I totally agree putting in time with old friends is always worth it (maybe not through surprise calls) but on a local level, I'd encourage patience.
Things take time, friendship isn't something you can just switch on. It takes years, and that's the point. It's a journey, not a destination.
I would strongly encourage everyone to choose two or three friends and say “hey - I want to chat with you, but it’s hard to schedule calls. I’m just going to try calling you sometime when I have a few minutes free. If you can talk, great! If you can’t, no sweat. Sound OK?”
I lowered the stakes for calling/answering/not answering, and I actually catch up with my friends more often.
I'd hate that. I have a (small) group of friends, and we play games (almost) every weekend morning for 1-2 hours while on voice chat. I really enjoy that time but we have to schedule it in advance, we all have stuff going on. But we've been pretty good at making time for each other once a week for that time. Most of us are in different countries now so can no longer meet up in person, and this has been something that works for us.
If I'd get randomly called I'd actually just end up being annoyed, I need a sense of structure in my life lol.
"Don't ask to ask, just ask" is great in general, but if I tell someone this, I'm not trying to schedule a single call. It's more asking for permission to call whenever. Depending on who you and your friends are, it can be necessary to give this heads-up at least once so that, as another user put it, they don't get a panic attack from an unexpected phone call. As an older Gen Z, it feels like no one my age really calls each other out-of-the-blue, and you need something like this to establish it.
I just call them. I dont think you have to reach out and send a “hey I have question is it okay to ask”-style entering-the-chat messages. The overarching problem is that everyone started treating communication as a formal business letter.
I agree, but the social norm (for a lot of young people) is not to call spontaneously - at all, ever. Giving people a heads up helps, and then consistently following through, is a step that helps make it happen.
- making new friends does take a massive amount of time
I think the solution to this is to enjoy the journey. There's not a line that someone needs to cross before you can enjoy spending time with them. Just reach out and learn and enjoy people from the beginning.
I have thought alot about making friends and why it's so hard. I keep coming back to the same question.
In myself I find I can't seem to muster the motivation to spend enough time with someone that it would take to form a friendship. I want to have friends, but I don't care to know any of these people. I just don't like anyone that much. The question is, am I just inherently a cynical asshole? Or, has modern life done something to me that it has also done to everyone else?
I read an outstanding quote in a Brad Thor novel that I think speaks volumes about how to make friends:
"Faith comes from trust, which comes from time, and experience"
With the Internet, and social media, it can feel like we have friends when we really don't. But what social media etc. has robbed from us is that before, we had to spend time with people, we had experience with them, and over time they led to trust, and friendship. That's how people made friends before. Now we don't put that much effort into friendships because we think we already have friends because we see them on Facebook.
If it helps, I've found hosting a pizza night to be a really easy way to have some good hang time with friends. I make the pizza and it's good enough to be free dinner for them. The kids get to participate by customizing their pies. We all catch up for an hour or two in the kitchen, watching me scramble and make a mess. If somebody brings over a bottle of wine, even better.
For me, kids have had a “filtering” effect. Where previously I had a lot of friends (including shallow ones), having less time and being less flexible in general compressed my circle of friends to just a few people with whom I share both a deeper connection and a mutual understanding that the pressures of life sometimes get between us, and that’s ok.
And as another commenter mentioned, kids do grow older…
Unfortunately many people now strongly dislike receiving unexpected phone calls. You may (i have) genuinely upset some people by calling them. Yes, I’m rolling my eyes too, but that’s how they feel
That was my first thought as well, and I am one of those people. I strongly dislike being called, especially unexpectedly, and much prefer a quick text message to maybe meet up in person, if the opportunity presents itself (e.g. if one of us happens to be in the town of the other one)
Yeah, that's one of the reasons calls out of the blue are mostly reserved for emergencies in my family and friend group. Texts eliminate that factor, and are more polite. A phone call represents immediacy / urgency ("this merits interrupting whatever you might be doing right now"). A text like "hey are you free for a quick call?" lets the recipient pivot from what they're doing and engage on their terms. IMHO it's more considerate.
You're about one step away from sending an email to ask if you can send a text to ask if you can make a phone call.
It's not "more considerate" - you can ignore a phone call the same you can ignore a text. It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only. That's perfectly fine to ask for, but it doesn't help with making friendships easy.
Disagree with this. Sending a text saying "Can we call when you're free" is more considerate of the other persons time than a random call. It sounds like you're trying to make it sound absurd by your 'send an email to send a text', rather than focus on _why_ the text makes sense.
100% this. Apart from my SO and scammers, no one randomly calls me. If my brother would call me out of the blue I'd assume the worst. (Also, the one random call I vividly remember getting the past years is my mom calling me to let me know my grandfather unexpectedly passed away).
It's just needlessly anxiety-inducing. Not to mention it's a major inconvenience to interrupt someone randomly for a chat.
That’s the reason I started reaching out to old friends. A friend had died and I knew no one else would tell them. One I even had to track down through email and ask for their new phone number. But now that I’m in regular contact I find calling easier and I don’t have worst-case-scenario fears anymore.
Spam phone calls have become so horrendously common here in the US (multiple a day) that I just keep my mobile on do not disturb 24/7 with exceptions for those in my core contact group. Maybe I'll miss a call or two that actually had substance, but I'd rather be slightly more isolated than constantly annoyed. Find me on various online platforms with text chat, voice or video if you really want to reach me. Or don't.
Same here. Spam calls have really picked up these last couple of years, I also get multiple per day. Here in Switzerland you need to register with your ID to get a mobile phone number, but somehow these spam callers still manage to appear to be calling from a mobile phone, which used to be a strong signal for “not spam”.
It’s gotten so bad that I completely ignore unknown numbers, except if I’m expecting a call. This has its own downsides of course.
Tragedy of the commons. :-(
Maybe call screening can help, but at least on iOS it isn’t available yet here.
many people are now unable to discuss personal things at all, as I have a small business that is growing, I have interviewed hundreds of people seeking employment, and flat out refuse to even talk about resumes or past qualifications, as what counts in this case is an ability to comunicate verbaly about a combination of technical specifications, and then the mundane details of achiving them, so a verbal interview,that focuses on there full skill sets, and youth, mentors, and other influenced, many choke and hand up, sputter and repeat the speel they have practiced, one in 50 can
roll with it cheerfully.
I wonder what is driving this. I too sense that people are really guarded these days. For me, I work remotely and it's hard to build true rapport through Slack.
Lack of barrier breaking. Fewer people call and talk outside of slack so it becomes the norm to not talk outside of slack. When you do it seems weird. Break the norm.
Later that day, walking home through darkened streets, I noticed small groups, maybe a dozen people at a time, gathered around certain spots. For some reason, a few closed shops still seemed to have working free Wi-Fi (backup generators, maybe), and people clustered there, drawn in like mosquitoes to light. Their faces glowed in the dark, lit only by their screens, and they stood in near-total silence. It’s hard to describe the feeling, it was surreal. You had to be there.
I’m no Luddite, but I went to sleep that night wondering how on earth we get ourselves out of this.
We have better heating/air conditioning, endless television/video games/entertainment, large refrigerators, lower density, etc and so on.
Back then, home covered a narrower set of needs - so the default option was to spend time elsewhere, even if it was just to escape the noise/heat/smells/smoke of home for a minute.
I'm currently trying to reduce internet usage by a simple rule: no feeds (try to avoid places where I could even see them).
It's extremely difficult.
YouTube receives you with a feed, every social network as well, even the online version of a newspaper is arguably a feed. It's usually not possible to use a service without having one in frequent sight. Even my weather app tries its best to offer a feed of weather related news, the photo gallery app shows one of memories....
You want someone to be friends with you, as you actually are. And that means you need to be friends with them, as they actually are, even if you worship different brands or vote for different movies.
It’s not any more or less terrifying than in previous times, but as you wrote “you don’t really need to interact with so many different people”.
I would shorten that to “you don’t need so many people anymore”. Another factor is you can easily find more agree-able people (or bots) to spend time with, such as on this website rather than a neighbor.
I’m kind of horrified at people saying they had/have to work at their best friendships as with my best friends, everything is seamless.
There are no misunderstandings. We never have to forgive each other. We never even need to clarify things for each other much, as we are that well aligned.
Granted it may not be possible, but ideally go find a better match in a friend.
There's nothing wrong with having to work at friendship. For years I had a friend that I looked up to (and, as it turned out looked up to me). We were both constantly striving to justify the other's faith and respect. It was a lot of work but incredibly valuable for both of us.
I can’t and don’t see an easy solution for it, to be honest.
- making new friends does take a massive amount of time, not just in finding friends but also in spending time with them until you can call them long-time friends
- so you need to invest time in hanging out with people! Even when you don’t know what to say to them or when it’s awkward or when you’re not sure if you like them much. We weren’t picky when we were kids making friends, we just hung out a lot with whoever wanted to hang out
- this also means make yourself available. Romantic partners, new jobs, as well as kids basically destroy your free time, but lots of it is self inflicted. Make sure you don’t seclude yourself and prioritize hanging out with people
- also, it’s a number game, you should meet a lot of people if you want to eventually have a strong group of friends
- one trick is to organize a house party or some gathering once a week, on the same day, and invite everyone you know, and ask them to invite more people as well
- make sure you also spend time doing nothing with friends. Like watching tv and sitting on the couch. That’s how you used to create friendships as a kid, you just “hang”, you didn’t “go to the restaurant and went home afterwards”
So there's that. Obviously there are other ways, but thought it'd be fun to share.
Also research on self-disclosure might help. Long story short: be the first to reveal some details about yourself and progressively go deeper to the level that you want, it's kind of a tit for tat type of thing. There was one popular article about it so you could "fall in love" but IMO it's not love, it's simply building a deeper connection. Check it out [1].
I used to be really interested in topics like this, so if you want to know more about it or brainstorm, feel free to reach out. My email is in my profile.
[1] https://36questionsinlove.com/
https://supernuclear.substack.com/p/stoop-coffee-how-a-simpl...
they are written the same...
And given that it is Afrikaans, I guess so. Afrikaans always reads as "Dutch but it's a puzzle!" to me.
Found a local computer club, crew of lads tinkering and using open source software. Really nice, smart bunch. I'm learning loads and appreciating their company.
OP found this lacking, because it's not working fast enough and he's not getting enough time with people.
I totally agree putting in time with old friends is always worth it (maybe not through surprise calls) but on a local level, I'd encourage patience.
Things take time, friendship isn't something you can just switch on. It takes years, and that's the point. It's a journey, not a destination.
I lowered the stakes for calling/answering/not answering, and I actually catch up with my friends more often.
If I'd get randomly called I'd actually just end up being annoyed, I need a sense of structure in my life lol.
I think the solution to this is to enjoy the journey. There's not a line that someone needs to cross before you can enjoy spending time with them. Just reach out and learn and enjoy people from the beginning.
People feel overworked, tired and out of money.
This general malaise spills on almost every type of social interaction, including friendships unfortunately.
In myself I find I can't seem to muster the motivation to spend enough time with someone that it would take to form a friendship. I want to have friends, but I don't care to know any of these people. I just don't like anyone that much. The question is, am I just inherently a cynical asshole? Or, has modern life done something to me that it has also done to everyone else?
"Faith comes from trust, which comes from time, and experience"
With the Internet, and social media, it can feel like we have friends when we really don't. But what social media etc. has robbed from us is that before, we had to spend time with people, we had experience with them, and over time they led to trust, and friendship. That's how people made friends before. Now we don't put that much effort into friendships because we think we already have friends because we see them on Facebook.
You can either have deep friendships XOR children.
All of them are either still without children, or are by no means valuable friends anymore.
Sorry, but that's just how it is.
Presumably they don't want to engage in discussion, which is precisely what this topic is about!
It's not "more considerate" - you can ignore a phone call the same you can ignore a text. It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only. That's perfectly fine to ask for, but it doesn't help with making friendships easy.
It's just needlessly anxiety-inducing. Not to mention it's a major inconvenience to interrupt someone randomly for a chat.