You Commit Three Felonies a Day (2013)

(kottke.org)

63 points | by zekrioca 7 hours ago

21 comments

  • hn_throwaway_99 1 hour ago
    To be blunt, I think this blog post highlights everything that's wrong with Internet discourse today (and in 2013) :

    1. First, make a bold assertion (i.e. that an average person commits three felonies a day) and provide absolutely zero evidence for this, or even an example of what those felonies are. Sure, this blog post references a book that I'm assuming has more info, but given that "vague, overbroad laws" are the central thesis of this blog post, the author should at least give some examples or evidence of what he's referring to. "Lie with citations", where you make a claim, and with a referenced link, but that link only has a tangential relationship with your claim, is all too common online.

    2. The post brings up the example of Joseph P Nacchio's prosecution with a telling that is clearly one-sided and doesn't even entertain the possibility that he committed serious crimes. I absolutely believe it was possible he was prosecuted for his decision to push back against the NSA, but I'm certainly not going to believe it from this blog post. The Wikipedia article on Joseph Nacchio states "Nacchio claimed that he was not in a rightful state of mind when he sold his shares because of problems with his son, and the imminent announcement of a number of government contracts." So it seems clear to me he at least admitted that some of his stock sales were improper.

    What I think is even more assinine is that the one single example, a CEO who was prosecuted for insider trading, absolutely does not support the assertion that the average person commits 3 felonies a day, or that laws are overbroad. I'm quite sure I've never made any equity transactions that could be considered insider trading, so my empathy for this situation is low.

  • ericyd 2 hours ago
    For such a short book review I feel like they could have listed out one or two example felonies that people likely commit each day. Feels like a weird tease.
    • armada651 2 hours ago
      According to this review the book never backs up its claim: https://www.econlib.org/three-felonies-a-day/
      • nativeit 57 minutes ago
        I don't know that it was intended to assert or enumerate that as a literal statement? Seems like it was only trying to suggest that our code of laws is such that any individual could be targeted, and it's plausible that they could be found in violation of some statute given sufficient motivation on the part of investigators. This strikes me as intuitively true, and tracks with other signals such as the impact of "Broken Windows Policing"[1], the recent application of Justice Department investigations as political retribution, the ongoing phenomena of false confessions[2], the statistics involved with erroneous convictions[3], etc..

        That's a charitable reading of the title and the author's intentions. I don't know that their underlying point is even possible to quantify, but in my opinion that doesn't detract from its basic assertion that no one should feel out-of-reach from the kind of motivated prosecution they describe in the one highlighted example.

        I also ran across another comment under one of the more critical reviews of the book, and I found it relevant (as did the author of the critical review, in their reply)[4]:

        > Also, I think the book also makes an important point implicitly on ‘rule of law’ arguments as they relate to public policy. It’s common for people to argue, for example, that regardless of the merits of illegal immigration or economic regulations, their violators deserve to be punished simply because, “it’s the law.” We can’t just let the law go unenforced. Except the law (often very trivial laws) goes selectively unenforced – and selectively enforced – all the time, as illustrated in Silverglate’s book. It’s already a foregone conclusion that we pick in choose how many resources (if any at all) to devote to enforcing a particular crime, usually depending on how severe it’s considered by most people.

        --

        1. https://www.simplypsychology.org/broken-windows-theory.html

        2. https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/speaking-of-psychology/fal...

        3. https://innocenceproject.org/exonerations-data/

        4. https://www.econlib.org/three-felonies-a-day/

        Edit: formatting

        • hn_throwaway_99 1 minute ago
          I certainly took that "3 felonies a day" literally, or at least in the realm of possibility. I think a "yeah, just kidding!" response is horrifically lame.
        • gruez 26 minutes ago
          >I don't know that it was intended to assert or enumerate that as a literal statement?

          Here's the blub from amazon.com:

          >The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day.

          I don't know how you can read that and think "three felonies a day was a metaphor!"

          >I don't know that their underlying point is even possible to quantify, but in my opinion that doesn't detract from its basic assertion that no one should feel out-of-reach from the kind of motivated prosecution they describe in the one highlighted example.

          Sorry, but "they're were still directionally correct" is not an excuse for sloppy writing and outlandish claims. The author didn't have to incorporate the "three felonies a day" into his book. He could have named it literally anything else.

      • fny 1 hour ago
        At the same time, that review concedes he “would bet the number is more like three felonies a month.” That seems sufficient for abuse.
  • hermannj314 1 hour ago
    I asked if I could pay cash for an MRI rather than wait for insurance approval just to speed up the process of booking. I offered to manually file a reimbursement later if it was approved or pay cash if it wasn't.

    Apparently, in the United States that is considered insurance fraud or something, whereas when I lived in Luxembourg that is how the system worked. I don't even understand what world we have constructed in the US.

    • _dark_matter_ 1 hour ago
      Idk what happened on their end, but someone close to me was recently diagnosed with cancer. After the biopsy came out positive, they wanted to do a pet scan, but had to wait for approval from insurance (which apparently could take several weeks). I offered the same as you, and they agreed and did the pet scan within days.
    • jagged-chisel 1 hour ago
      Keep in mind that the facility is likely making an error. But you won’t convince them of that if any of the staff suspects anything could be perceived as fraudulent (even if it’s not) - they’ll just avoid the risk.
    • wrs 1 hour ago
      That sounds like it might be the staff just being uninformed because nobody has ever wanted to do that before.

      But a likely practical problem with that plan is that the cash price is unrelated to the price the insurance company has negotiated with the facility, and the negotiated price is a secret, so if you pay the cash price you won’t be reimbursed for the amount you paid. You’d need to get them to agree to refund the difference if insurance approved later.

      For imaging in particular, there are some facilities that can handle direct payment rather than expecting everything to be paid by insurance. Maybe look for one of those if this comes up again.

      Yes, this is very messed up. Welcome to the USA!

      • gizmo686 38 minutes ago
        Are the negotiated prices secret? I've never had a major hospital visit. But every time insurance has covered something for me, I could look on my account claims and see both the official price, and the negotiated price.

        I also had an "amusing" experience with my dental insurance, where my provider went out of network, and I didn't know until I was in the chair (at which point I was at least asked before they proceeded). When I went to pay, they gave me a bill that listed only something to the effect of "anticipated insurance payment", which is what I was charged. They also filed an insurance claim on my behalf, which was eventually reimbursed fully. However, when I got the reimbursement notice from my insurer, it list a cash price about 50% higher than what I paid, which my insurance company was able to negotiate down for me.

    • cameron_b 25 minutes ago
      Unless you actually spoke with someone on the legal side in billing, the assumption passed through hospital systems is to stay way away from things which could possibly be seen as fraud, quid pro quo, kickbacks, or any host of financial crimes that are unusual. The staff are taught “You are not a lawyer, let us handle that, here is your playbook” and not to deviate from that.

      That disposition of bracing against legal wrangling underscores most of the annoying parts of healthcare, especially the cost.

      -I work in a hospital system’s technical department.

  • djha-skin 1 hour ago
    It should be remembered that in 2013 all the Edward Snowden stuff came out. This reads like a reaction to those revelations. Read in that context, it makes more sense: this is less a book review and more an accusation. Its portent is that the NSA will do anything it needs to to get at your data.

    My father served in the military. He does not have a high opinion of Edward Snowden. He says that loose lips sink ships. He says that these kinds of leaks cause soldiers to die.

    I have no patience for men who cause soldiers to die, but after that experience I do remain skeptical of the NSA and NIST.

    • snypher 1 hour ago
      >I have no patience for men who cause soldiers to die

      I'll remember this when I next think of when we spent twenty years sending our kids to die in the sandbox.

      • robocat 31 minutes ago
        You are responding with a grey comment to a black & white statement (metaphorically).

        Different thinking styles.

    • Mistletoe 1 hour ago
      What did the soldiers fighting in the wars die for if the government becomes a totalitarian surveillance cesspool anyway? The sacrifice means nothing if we become what they were fighting.
      • GoblinSlayer 52 minutes ago
        Soldiers fighting totalitarian surveillance cesspool would be like state fighting itself.
  • fastaguy88 1 hour ago
    Not a lawyer, but there are a lot of crimes that are not felonies. Speeding 10 mph above the limit in a 65 mph zone - not a felony. Reading hacker news for an hour during work time and not being paid $800/hr - not a felony. Calling in sick when you are hung over - not a felony. There is no federal tax on gifts for the giftee. Indeed, I suspect there are a surprising number of crimes that could get you jail time that are not felonies. Insider trading - it’s a felony, which is why people in companies with insider trading information are told they cannot trade at certain times.

    I’m pretty comfortable believing I have probably not committed more than two or three felonies in my life. (Don’t want to find out I am wrong.)

    • everforward 1 hour ago
      How much of that is them being categorically not a felony and how much is prosecutorial discretion? 15 over probably qualifies for a reckless operation charge of some kind. Likewise, I wouldn’t be surprised if a fake sick day is wire fraud even if it never actually gets charged that way.

      I would believe you’ve only committed two or three “name-brand” felonies, I’d be surprised if it were really that few under a maximally scoped prosecutor. Never borrowed antibiotics or a painkiller from a friend? Never decided it wasn’t worth the effort to file a tax document for $3 of dividends?

      3 a day feels high, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it were double digits a year under an incredibly strict reading of the laws for the average person.

    • titanomachy 1 hour ago
      Those are not crimes either, though.
      • gruez 1 hour ago
        The claim is specifically three "felonies" a day, though.
  • prmph 1 hour ago
    1. Speeding over the speed limit can be a crime. I haven't ever driven in the US and not noticed that pretty much everyone around me is over-speeding

    2. Failing to pay tax on certain gifts can be a crime

    > You make a gift if you give property (including money), or the use of or income from property, without expecting to receive something of at least equal value in return. If you sell something at less than its full value or if you make an interest-free or reduced-interest loan, you may be making a gift. [1]

    3. If you are reading Hacker News on end instead of working for your employers who pays you, you could be stealing from them, a felony.

    4. Jay-walking can a misdemeanor, and open to interpretation. Commit 3 misdemeanors and you could have committed a felony.

    5. More examples come to mind

    [1] https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

    • gruez 1 hour ago
      >1. Speeding over the speed limit can be a crime. I haven't ever driven in the US and not noticed that pretty much everyone around me is over-speeding

      Most "over-speeding" isn't a crime, and is only a civil infraction. It only becomes a crime when you're absurdly over the limit.

      > 2. Failing to pay tax on certain gifts can be a crime

      Again, it can be a crime, but not for the overwhelming majority of people. The gift exemption limit for 2025 is $19,000. How many people are getting that much in gifts, but don't have their shit together for a tax lawyer? Moreover there's a section for it on your tax returns, so the "I forgot" excuse makes as much sense as "forgetting" to file taxes for your crypto sales.

      >3. If you are reading Hacker News on end instead of working for your employers who pays you, you could be stealing from them, a felony.

      >3. Jay-walking can a misdemeanor, and open to interpretation. Commit 3 misdemeanors and you could have committed a felony.

      Source on either of them happening in actuality?

      • wrs 1 hour ago
        Despite the name, a gift tax return isn’t to pay any tax, it’s just to deduct the gift from a future (several million dollar) estate tax exemption. There’s no reason to avoid filing one.
      • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 1 hour ago
        >> How many people are getting that much in gifts

        The giver of the gift should file form 709 and potentially pay taxes, not the recipient. Recipient pays nothing.

    • markburns 1 hour ago
      People obeying the speed limit encounter fewer people obeying the speed limit than people speeding and vice versa.

      My theory: I think this explains why so many drivers hate other drivers and think they are bad drivers.

      People that love to speed think they are good because they can drive faster and react quickly (presumably). They inadvertently see more people that don’t drive in this style.

      People who drive carefully encounter more reckless drivers.

    • nashashmi 1 hour ago
      Traffic rules are not criminal laws. Breaking a traffic rule is not a crime. Likewise, reading news at work is not a felony, just a lack of discipline and work ethic.

      Understand that there are differences between rules, policy, regulations, and laws. Work is regulated (rule is on how to do things), policy is practiced (rule on how things are treated), while laws forbid (rule on what you cannot do).

      • prmph 23 minutes ago
        > Breaking a traffic rule is not a crime.

        You think over speeding and running a red light and hitting someone and potentially killing them is not a crime? Think again.

        Regarding reading at work, see this comment [1]:

        > checking Hacker News from work when you should be working is a federal felony, and if not honest services fraud, certainly something they could try you with for wire fraud (it is financial in that you are billing your employer for your time!). Moreover if you check a site for non-work purposes which has a note in the ToS which says that unlawful use is prohibited, then you have committed felony computer trespass (because you "accessed" their servers in excess of authorization provided by the ToS in pursuit of criminal or tortuous ends).

        [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5860641

      • rayiner 1 hour ago
        In many states, such as Maryland, traffic laws are criminal laws and breaking a traffic law is a misdemeanor criminal offense.
    • atian 1 hour ago
      There is a huge lifetime gift tax exemption.
  • kazinator 1 hour ago
    There is a Russian adage about it. Evidently this:

    "Был бы человек, а статья найдется" (Byl by chelovyek, a statya naydyot sa.)

    "Where there is a man, there is an article" (of law he's breaking that could be used to convict him).

  • metadat 2 hours ago
    Discussed previously:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5860250 - 169 comments (June 2013)

  • wcfrobert 1 hour ago
    - Not reporting large cash transactions (over $10,000)

    - Using someone else's ID can be interpreted as identity theft (sharing student ID discount, Costco cards, epic passes)

    - torrenting copyrighted content (textbooks, music, movies, TV shows, audio books). I'm sure most of my classmates in school torrented some of those $200 textbooks.

    • gruez 1 hour ago
      >- Not reporting large cash transactions (over $10,000)

      If you're talking about Currency Transaction Report, only financial institutions have to file those.

      >- Using someone else's ID can be interpreted as identity theft (sharing student ID discount, Costco cards, epic passes)

      Is "identity theft" actually a distinct crime? Or is it just fraud? If it's the latter, it's not a felony unless you're getting absurdly high amounts of benefit.

      >- torrenting copyrighted content (textbooks, music, movies, TV shows, audio books). I'm sure most if not all of my classmates in school torrented some of those $200 textbooks.

      Copyright infringement is a civil infraction unless you're doing it commercially (eg. burning bootleg DVDs to sell)

      • wcfrobert 50 minutes ago
        I was thinking form 8300.

        Could seeding a torrent be interpreted as distribution?

        You're right most of these would result in a slap on the wrist or fines. Perhaps 3 misdemeanors a day? But I think the overall sentiment still stands - that it's hard to be a saint.

        • gruez 37 minutes ago
          >I was thinking form 8300.

          It's only criminal for "willful" infractions. If you sold a car and forgot to file, that's probably not willful. Moreover, how often are people really doing >$10k cash transactions? "it's hard to be a saint" is a massive shifting of the goalposts from "3 felonies per day".

          https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

          >Could seeding a torrent be interpreted as distribution?

          From wikipedia: United States v. LaMacchia 871 F.Supp. 535 (1994) was a case decided by the United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts which ruled that, under the copyright and cybercrime laws effective at the time, committing copyright infringement for non-commercial motives could not be prosecuted under criminal copyright law.

    • kazinator 57 minutes ago
      I feel you are mixing something up here. Assume that the student ID discount or Costco card, etc, are being borrowed: used with the card holder's blessing. Or borrowing a Netflix password.

      It is the institution giving the student ID discount, or Costco or Netflix, who are not happy about it, and call it theft.

      But it is not theft of the identity.

    • kazinator 56 minutes ago
      > I'm sure most of my classmates in school torrented some of those $200 textbooks.

      That is so 2020. Today, AI pirates the textbooks; the student just generate the homework.

  • metaphor 1 hour ago
    The complaint[1] by the SEC against Qwest during the dot-com bubble...you decide if Nacchio serving "a trumped-up 6-year federal prison sentence" was appropriate.

    [1] https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/comp18936.pd...

    • capitainenemo 1 hour ago
      The case against Nacchio is a different one.
  • 1970-01-01 1 hour ago
    Parallel construction seems to be the more leveraged government tool these days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

  • bartread 1 hour ago
    I can sort of buy it but, honestly, this argument would be a lot more convincing with more concrete examples that are relateable to ordinary people. Some CEO getting busted for insider trading is not "ordinary people".

    There's nothing in there that backs up this assertion: "The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day."

    Like I say, I could buy it, but I need more concrete evidence - with examples - and less hyperbole, please.

  • ashton314 2 hours ago
    I would love some examples for other occupations.
    • AyyEye 1 hour ago
      If you have ever bought, sold, transported, held, or been alone in a room with a Gibson guitar you have been in violation of the Lacey Act.
  • zellyn 2 hours ago
    “If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.”
  • antiquark 1 hour ago
    Reminded me of the youtube vid, "Don't Talk to the Police" [1]. One of the speaker's points is that there are so many laws that people might not know which law they broke.

    [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

  • croes 1 hour ago
    Land of the free
  • ralusek 2 hours ago
    > If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide

    Ok but in not hiding anything, we all apparently do a lot "wrong."

  • xyst 2 hours ago
    The "case study" [1] in the author’s post is unsubstantiated. The author of the "case study" (it’s a short e-mail depicting a conviction of a C-level executive) even tries to parallel it with Aaron Schwartz conviction which is disgusting to me.

    The C-level executive and his lackeys were committing _insider trading_ and profited from it. You getting caught with your pants down is not government overreach, it’s blatant greed. This does not have any similarity to Aaron Schwartz wrongful conviction.

    [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130614024309/https://mailman.s...

    • sejje 2 hours ago
      Aaron wasn't convicted.
    • Asooka 2 hours ago
      But that's the point - he wasn't doing anything that other CEOs weren't doing too, except he got targeted by the government and was imprisoned for six years.
      • gruez 1 hour ago
        >he wasn't doing anything that other CEOs weren't doing too

        Source? Are you making the claim that "other CEOs" (all? most? many?) trade on material nonpublic information? CEOs basically always have material nonpublic information on them, even without secret government contracts. That's why there's rule 10b5-1, to allow them to pre-declare their trades ahead of time to avoid such allegations.

        • dullcrisp 1 hour ago
          And also the implicit claim that this is fine and normal and that insider trading laws shouldn’t be enforced against CEOs?
          • tavavex 1 hour ago
            I feel like we're reading two different posts. In my interpretation, the post describes the whole accusation as a logical contradiction. It's not your normal insider trading - it's an accusation based on the fact that the CEO did any stock transactions while knowing classified information that also related to his company. What was he supposed to do to make this right? Tell the general public the classified information? Avoid doing anything with his company's shares indefinitely (or at least, for the decades until said information is declassified)? The defense here goes beyond "everyone does this so this is fine" (though I wouldn't be surprised if others did in fact do this).
            • dullcrisp 35 minutes ago
              You got me, I just came to the comments to learn what felonies I’m committing so I may be missing some nuance.

              But I do believe that doing stock transactions while knowing material non-public information is the definition of insider trading that you’re taught if you ever work at a public company. As for how exactly you’re supposed to handle that if you’re the CEO I’m not sure but I don’t think the answer is “just do the insider trading, everyone does it.”

            • jlund-molfese 28 minutes ago
              Isn't this type of situation what blind trusts are supposed to be for? Although they'd obviously be inconvenient.
            • gruez 44 minutes ago
              >Avoid doing anything with his company's shares indefinitely (or at least, for the decades until said information is declassified)?

              Wouldn't the contracts eventually show up on the financial statements?

      • ecb_penguin 2 hours ago
        > But that's the point - he wasn't doing anything that other CEOs weren't doing too

        1. Millions of business executives go their entire life without insider trading

        2. Lots of people commit crimes and are not caught. It doesn't mean you're excused when you are caught.

        • deknos 24 minutes ago
          > 1. Millions of business executives go their entire life without insider trading

          Citation needed. At some point at some position you will be ALWAYS vulnerable. that's for the people at the top and at the bottom. both are very vulnerable. the people at the top have MUCH to loose. the people at the bottom can be stopped to have anything to loose and still be tortured.

      • vajrabum 1 hour ago
        The feds don’t generally indict unless it’s a slam dunk. That means two things. Lots of people walk and they will go after someone if they have the evidence. As a small investor I’m glad they get at least a few. Insider trading is a kind of stealing where the victims don’t generally even know they’ve been robbed and at the high end the amounts are large.
        • deknos 17 minutes ago
          > The feds don’t generally indict unless it’s a slam dunk.

          You do not need to. You can ruin reputation. You can starve them in court proceedings and rituals.

  • thrpdfmkr 1 hour ago
    [flagged]